Prison to Professor – Nathan Stephens, MSW

In this episode, I talk with Nathan Stephens, who is an Assistant Professor of Social Work at Illinois State University and a PhD candidate in Educational Leadership & Policy Analysis at the University of Missouri Columbia. Nathan gives a raw and vulnerable account of his experience from being in prison for selling drugs, to spirituality and healing, to social work. He shares about how he grew up and the trauma he experienced, as well as those who supported him, and how he wanted to find ways to give back to the community and help Black youth who are born into similar conditions as he was. Nathan highlights how school was a safe space for him to get away from the abuse he experienced at home, and that his academic performance was a strength, so he was excited to go back to college after prison, and he excelled. He discusses how he uses his life experience to inform his analysis, teaching, research, and community work, which includes creating programs for Black men, teaching a course in a prison called Social Justice in Social Work, and working with Black male youth groups in the community. Nathan further explains that his research looks at critical topics like racialized stress and the trauma from hypersexualization and sexual abuse of Black boys and men, and how we need to talk about these issues. We also discuss hypersurveillance by police in Black and Brown communities versus white suburbs and rural areas; who gets arrested, charged, and convicted; and how arrest records can be a major barrier to employment, including being a social worker. I hope this conversation inspires you to action.

Facebook Mister Nathan Stephens
LinkedIn www.linkedin.com/in/nathan-a-s-25416522/

Music credit:

“District Four” Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License

http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

TRANSCRIPT

Shimon Cohen:

Welcome to Doin’ The Work: Frontline Stories of Social Change, where we bring you stories of real people working to address real issues. I am your host, Shimon Cohen.

Shimon Cohen:

In this episode, I talk with Nathan Stephens, who is an Assistant Professor of Social Work at Illinois State University and a PhD candidate in Educational Leadership and Policy Analysis at the University of Missouri Columbia. Nathan gives a raw and vulnerable account of his experience from being in prison for selling drugs, to spirituality and healing, to social work.

Shimon Cohen:

He shares about how he grew up and the trauma he experienced, as well as those who supported him, and how he wanted to find ways to give back to the community and help Black youth who are born into similar conditions as he was. Nathan highlights how school was a safe space for him to get away from the abuse he experienced at home, and that his academic performance was a strength, so he was excited to go back to college after prison, and he excelled.

Shimon Cohen:

He discusses how he uses his life experience to inform his analysis, teaching, research and community work, which includes creating programs for Black men, teaching a course in prison called Social Justice and Social Work, and working with Black male youth groups in the community. Nathan further explains that his research looks at critical topics like racialized stress and the trauma from hypersexualization and sexual abuse of Black boys and men, and how we need to talk about these issues.

Shimon Cohen:

We also discuss hypersurveillance by police in Black and Brown communities versus white suburbs and rural areas; who gets arrested, charged and convicted; and how arrest records can be a major barrier to employment, including being a social worker. I hope this conversation inspires you to action.

Shimon Cohen:

Hey, Nathan, thanks so much for coming on the podcast. So you and I connected after the SWCAREs Black Men in Social Work event and part of us connecting was to figure out when to get you on here and I'm so glad now you're on Doin' the Work so we can talk about you and the work you do. And to start off really get into what led you to social work and the work you do which we will then talk about later.

Nathan Stephens:

Actually, what led me to social work was honestly, being in a prison cell. While at prison cell, I had a vision of sorts about working with young people. And I envisioned this train to perdition of sorts. And it's kind of cheesy but it was almost like The Lone Ranger, someone riding and pulling young people off of this train.

Nathan Stephens:

I remember specifically it was young men of color, young Black men, and helping them get off the train and take them to the safety. And it was me and a few other people, and we were doing this work. And so when I was ready to come home, I thought I want to work with youth. I want to help young people. I want people like myself who was raised in public housing. My mother was addicted to crack. My dad was never in the pitcher, those type of things.

Nathan Stephens:

And so I began to think about how I can help to kind of break those cycles for young people in the community. And so, I returned to school. I got my BSW. I got my MSW, and I began doing some of that work. And I've been doing some of it in the community because when I got released, I got a job doing community recreation. And the community recreation is a code word for my city's parks and recreation division. So it's like parks and creation and community recreation, so like the Black folks.

Nathan Stephens:

And so working with some of the kids from my community, it just was a passion of mine and so as I'm going to school, I decided I wanted to do this because again, I wanted to give back. Part of what led me into prison in the first place was selling drugs, selling poison to my community and understanding that even though it was an economic choice per se, you kind of owe for that. At least you become a little bit more enlightened and a little bit sensitive to what you've done.

Nathan Stephens:

And so I felt like I kind of owed and I need to give back for that. And so that was my way of giving back, was going into social work and trying to strengthen families through youth.

Shimon Cohen:

Man, that's powerful and I know we're going to get more into it. As you're talking, one thing I'm thinking of is like, okay, so you're selling drugs. You obviously get caught. You go to prison, and then you have this visions. Was there some transformation taking place? Where did it go from, "Okay, there's this economic reality that you've got to make money, and there's limited opportunity." And so you're selling drugs, then you're in prison. There's whole bunch of different stuff I'm assuming going on in prison.

Shimon Cohen:

Then you have this vision and then you're out again, and you're working with youth. Can you talk a little bit about what that prison experience was like?

Nathan Stephens:

Yeah, absolutely. For me, I felt like because I had gone to college before. I had gone to college and then fell by the wayside, so to speak. And so for me, being locked up in a jail cell facing 25 to life at that time, that was rock bottom. I'm like to going from a college classroom to this, you did something wrong and you need to figure it out.

Nathan Stephens:

And so when I began doing a little bit of exploration, it's actually the first time I cracked open the Bible. And I jokingly refer to ... I tell people, I say, "You could have asked me who was Jesus Christ for a million dollars, and I'd been like he had something to do with church. Can I get $10,000?" I mean, I literally had gone to church but I didn't really know.

Nathan Stephens:

And so, it wasn't one of those things like you heard the whole jailhouse religion thing. It wasn't so much that as it was, I needed some kind of foundation to start different. And so that was kind of the thing that kicked off. But what that did was that led me to a little bit of self-acceptance because the abuse that I experienced, part of what it did was it calls me to be traumatic and I didn't understand that term until later on, and we'll talk about that.

Nathan Stephens:

But you began doing things like I need nice clothes and I need nice car and I need all these things to impress people because I wasn't okay within myself. And so that experience, religious experience if you would, kind of helped me be okay with myself. And that began the transformative process to where, "Okay, I'm not what I was but you're not quite what you're going to be."

Nathan Stephens:

And so that began the progression and moving forward but also had people that was in the jail cell with me and I'll never forget one of the guys. He says, "What are you doing here?" And I'm thinking, "You mean besides being accused or something?" But he says, "You got them smarts." He says, "I can hear it when you talk." And so that just really led me to say, "Good question, what are you doing here? If you're intelligent, you've been to college, what are you doing here?"

Nathan Stephens:

And so I began to kind of explore again myself and my reality and began to plan upon my release the things that I can do different and how I could change my trajectory because I definitely didn't want to go back to that. And we know the recidivism rate is high but I think part of it is because we haven't done the work internally. And when you don't do that, then you get out, the world is moving 90 miles an hour and everything is just rush, rush, rush, rush, rush.

Nathan Stephens:

And then you have the system saying, "You have to get a job." Well, it's hard to get a job because I don't have a car. And I don't have the birth certificate. I don't have the driver's license. I don't have ... "I don't care, get it, get it, get it." And so you're like, "Ah, ah, ah." And so finally, some people they just say, "Well, forget it. I'm going back to the street."

Nathan Stephens:

But I felt like I couldn't do that. I felt like, no, staying with my mom on drugs and having my community really suffer for things that myself and others did even though it wasn't like a drug war or anything like that, at the end of the day, it's still poison that you're giving to people to look like you. But one of the other things was I remember one incident where I bought one of my clients, customers if you would, all her food stamps. In the paper, food stamps were being passed around.

Nathan Stephens:

And there were little kids in the house, man. And the refrigerator was empty. And here I am in the kitchen taking all of the food stamps and I'm looking at these kids. That always stuck with me. And so I tell people, I was never a bad person, I did bad things. And so I knew that the couple had an older daughter that was in high school, that went to my high school. And so the next day, I put all the food stamps on envelope and I went up and I talked to one of my former assistant principal, I won't call names but I told him I needed to talk to this young girl. He kind of looked at me and I said, "You know me. You know I'm not a problematic person. I'd never been. I'm a smart student."

Nathan Stephens:

He called her down to the office and I gave her the food stamps and I gave her $50. I said, "When you get out of school, you go to the store, you spend all of these and then you take this cab home because you have younger brothers and sisters and yourself and I want to make sure that you're all eating." Again, I think those are the things that were within me that made me "redeemable." Again, I wasn't the monster that society likes to portray Black men as. Again, it's different between doing bad things and being a bad person.

Shimon Cohen:

Yeah, and you mentioned some stuff about trauma there. And so it sounds like obviously there was some stuff that even was going on before you were selling drugs and before you were in that situation. I don't know if you wanted to get into that now.

Nathan Stephens:

Well, I'm going to ... Sure, man. I mean, the thing is, growing up in a situation where my mom cussed me out every day, "You ignorant SOB, dumb SOB," and we were beaten with belts and extension cords and that kind of thing. And that was her dealing with her own trauma. As you know, hurt people hurt people. Going from that, it instilled in me an inadequacy. And so, having dealt with that and not having any money because we're poor. And so the dealing gave me an opportunity to have nice things and at least feel a little bit better about myself. And this notion of once you have a nice car and nice clothes and people know you have a little bit of money, they treat you a little bit better.

Nathan Stephens:

And so then that became a bit of an addiction in and of itself. And so I make the argument that most of the time drug dealers themselves are addicted to selling drugs. And so again, using bad means to try to feel better about myself and the bad experiences and then getting to the situation or to the point where I'm okay, you got to find another way to redeem yourself.

Nathan Stephens:

And so once I kind of felt a little better about myself, I felt like no, I need to go back and help others.

Shimon Cohen:

So then you get out. You're doing some of that community work and then you decide at that point to get into a BSW program?

Nathan Stephens:

Yeah, I knew before I came home that I was going to back to college. I felt like I don't know ... Really, I'll say this. Since sixth grade, I remember in sixth grade I knew that for someone like me, education was one of the few avenues that I had that I could pursue and be good at. I like to joke, I come from a fairly athletic family and I was never the first team athlete. I was more second or third. But I was smart. I was always smart. I was always good in books. I was always a bit of a nerd, a geek.

Nathan Stephens:

And so I knew that was a strength. I knew that that was something that I could lean on. That was something looking back over my childhood, I always got the good grade cards and the little awards and certificates and things like that. And so just doing a little bit of self-assessment, what can you do to put yourself forward and never end up in a situation like this again? And again, you got somebody to just randomly that you don't even know telling you, you got them smarts.

Nathan Stephens:

And so piecing that together to feel like I can get an education and make a little money legally, and help out and kind of redeem the community in many ways or at least do my part. I mean I'm not a superhero or anything like that. It's just you do your part. And if nothing else, don't do any harm.

Shimon Cohen:

What was it like to go from prison then doing community work and then now you're sitting in a college classroom, like what was that ... And now, you're in class? What was that experience like?

Nathan Stephens:

It was, again, I've always been confident in my intellect, my ability to think, my ability to again hit some books. If you want to outrun me, if you want to lift weights, I know that I might not be the fastest or the strongest, but I like my chances with the books. So going in, I was excited to kind of go back into my strength. And that's also very uncommon for Black men and boys in terms of the K through 20 experiences where there's the school-to-prison pipeline and all that kind of thing versus ... Actually, that was my strength, was being able to hit the books with the free lunch programs so I don't have to worry about the abuse. Because again, at that time in my life, the classroom was safe.

Nathan Stephens:

I can't necessarily say that about a lot of schools nowadays but for me, that was safe so I was anxious to go back to where I was strong, where it was safe, and to be able to do that and then to graduate and my family was proud. And also at that time when I graduated, two of my cousins graduated with me on the same day. We all came from single-parent household, public housing. Their moms didn't necessarily go in drugs but mine did. But we were all from the same hood.

Nathan Stephens:

And so three Black men graduating from college the same day, we made the local newspaper. The vice president of the college came to the church where we had a little reception. At that time, I had connected with state representatives and civic leaders. And so some of them was there. That just kind of like, "Okay, this thing, this college thing, this kind of panned off for you."

Shimon Cohen:

Yeah, you're feeling pretty good, right?

Nathan Stephens:

Right, and I was on the dean's list. I graduated with 3.72 GPA. And so even that is a story in and of itself because I was working during the day and going to school at night at evening program. And one day, a guy who's my mentor to this very day, he comes to me and says, "Hey, you're going to Columbia College, do you know my wife?" And I'm looking at this guy, I'm like, "Wait a minute. What do you mean your wife?" He's a white guy, right?

Nathan Stephens:

And I said, "What's her name?" And so he said, "Well, the same last name as me," and I'm like, "Oh, yeah, I think I got some kind of letter from her. She wanted me to be involved with some kind of program." Well, him being who he is, he went back and asked her about the program and it was the Who's Who in America's Colleges and Universities and she's like, "Your custodian, your janitor, has a 3.72 GPA." He was like, "What?"

Nathan Stephens:

And so the next day he saw me, he says, "Hey, when you get done, come and see me. I want to offer you a job." And I'm like, "Yeah, right. Who is this white guy? He's nice and I appreciate it." But he did. And long story short, he actually was the one that called me and offered me a job to come and work in higher ed after I'd finished my master's degree. And I reached out to him and I said, "Hey, is that still available?" He says, "Well, I don't have anything." A few months later, he helped me get on at the University of Missouri as the director of the Black Culture Center there.

Nathan Stephens:

And so I could take my desire to help young people that was coming Kansas City, St. Louis, Chicago, Dallas inner cities and be a support for them. And I created programs particularly for Black men that ... Actually I created a program in 2009 and it's still going to this very day and I've been away for ... I've been in Illinois for seven years. That foundation was there and it's just meaningful to me to have created something that's helping young Black men. Again, going back to that vision.

Shimon Cohen:

Yeah. I mean, it's so amazing when you can create something and then you see the impact that it has and then you move on but it's still going. It's like that's a powerful thing right there. So then you left that program, and how did you get into teaching? Had you already started teaching when you were there?

Nathan Stephens:

Yeah. Actually, I began adjunct teaching while I was there, did it for, I think a couple of years. Teaching classes like working with minority youth, that's what I've done. And so bringing that perspective into the classroom with students that to me, I try to make it more experiential so it is not just reading from a textbook but these are kind of the lived experiences that I've had, currently working at parks and rec part time and that kind of thing. I was more just to stay connected to the community than for money.

Nathan Stephens:

And so when I left that campus, went to another school, I didn't teach but I still connected with young Black men on that campus. Left that campus, went to another campus, connected with young Black men and Latinx men, and also began to start teaching again. And that's when I had the opportunity this spring to teach social justice and social work at Danville Correctional Center. And so again, I remembered how meaningful it was to have church visitors coming in and visit and one of the groups that visited me while I was in prison in Oklahoma as where I was at, was a guy that I'd actually went to college with as a freshman.

Nathan Stephens:

And so just seeing him like, man. So I was ashamed that you haven't seen me in quite some time and when you do see me, it's here. But man, his gentle nature and just being a great guy that he is, he never shamed me. He never did any of that. We reconnected. He actually helped with bringing my daughter's mom to come and see me and was just really supportive. And so, he is one of those people that also inspired me to, well, I didn't want to let this guy down, because he's been great to try to help where he could in terms of being a support. Him and his wife and his family would pick my daughter's mom and her up and will take them to little family gatherings and stuff because, I mean, there was a void there because I am locked up.

Nathan Stephens:

And so again, all these people that poured into me and so again, that helped me to understand that people have helped you, you need to help and give back. And so those are the kind of conversations that I had with the man is I said ... And I will say this, that class ... Man, it was one of the most intellectually stimulating and challenging classes. I will tell you those guys are brilliant. I mean we talked about social justice, they get it.

Nathan Stephens:

But my challenge to them was we need you at the same intellectual level, the same character, the same zeal that you have here. We need you to find a way to keep it once you're released because your families and your communities need you on this educated, knowledge, giving back level. And so it was very, very rewarding for me to give back and to hear them say that they really appreciated me coming in because I told them my story. And so to them, they felt like, "I can go from this to being in a classroom?" I say, "Yeah, you can." I say, "First of all, Creator, God, the universe, ancestors, whatever someone believes in has to kind of be with you, because I definitely don't want to take credit for it all on my own. But believe in that that is working in my favor. Absolutely, you can do it. And it's not easy, but you got to roll up your sleeves and give back," because I told them, "You owed."

Nathan Stephens:

I told them, "I'm here with you all because I owed and I'm paying some of my debt to society by coming and pouring some of myself into you but that's because people pour their selves into me."

Shimon Cohen:

That class must have been incredible.

Nathan Stephens:

Oh, man. It was. Unfortunately, it got interrupted by COVID. They shut the prison down and we started doing kind of a correspondence course and the papers are still excellent. I even gave them assignments like what would be the response ... If you were a social worker, what would be your response based upon the news information that you're getting on COVID right now? And they were very informed, by the way. They were all more informed than I am.

Nathan Stephens:

But they learned about the disparities in terms of who COVID was impacting and that kind of thing. And so, they were talking about that, and so I gave them assignments that says, "Based upon your identity, you're a Latinx person or Black person, and you're working ... You can make up an agency, what are some of the things that you need to look at and be aware of related to COVID?" And we got some really, really good papers what they would do.

Shimon Cohen:

Are you going to keep doing that when you're able to again?

Nathan Stephens:

I would like to think I would but the issue is I was at a different school. And so since that time, I went from working at cultural centers to now being a full-time faculty member. And so as I make that transition, I would like to get back to some of that. I'd like that to be part of some of the research that I engage in because my research looks at experiences with racialized stress and trauma and the impact that it has upon communities of color but particularly Black men.

Nathan Stephens:

And so when you see a lot of the things that I've gone through and even some of the things that we don't really like to talk about such as the sexual assault and rape amongst Black men and boys that began all the way back in slavery. And so we don't really talk about that as a society. And so imagine being Lil Wayne who was raped at 11, Chris Brown at 8 and feeling like masculinity as defined by western construct. You're a big man now. You've this. Or you're one of those middle schoolers where a teacher had been inappropriate. We've seen all the news and headlines amongst that.

Nathan Stephens:

Black men and boys are often hyper-visualized and hyper-surveilled as criminals, as potential thugs when they're in the stores and all this kind of other stuff. But then on the other hand, they're also hyper-sexualized. So you have these teachers looking at these 13, 14, 15-year-old boys and oogling and ogling and we know that it is more common amongst women, particularly Black women and Black girls but it also happens to Black boys and Black men. And just over the weekend, I saw a story on Facebook where there was a 17-year-old football player and a friend of mine posted it and he said, "This guy is going to be the next big deal in college football." And then this guy was ... I mean, he was built like a tank. And a lot of women were comment, "Oh, what I would do to him." And it just made me think, "Oh, my god, he's 17."

Nathan Stephens:

So, technically, in many states, he's underage. He's not 18. I even think about here in Illinois, Chief Keef. And I followed this story a little bit and I want to share a little bit about this. So, this Chief Keef, he's in court right now being sued by the mother of one of his children. She's 43 last year, he was 23. And so they had a baby in 2013. At that time, the baby was six years old. So, 2013, six-year-old. So, 23-year-old minus six and then of course nine months, so that's basically seven. 23 minus seven is what? 16.

Nathan Stephens:

And so imagine this, so this woman is taking him to court for back child support but no one is talking about, "Wait a minute. Didn't you have sex with him when you were 36 and he was 16?" And so she's just brazen enough to go to court, not even fearing that someone, because there's no statute of limitations, you see? And so these are the kind of things that some Black men and others have to internalize.

Nathan Stephens:

And so I look at some of those kind of things in terms of how do I help put that kind of research out there to say, "Hey, we need to look at this." When someone is having this internal implosions that are a cause because you've been raped and sexually assaulted, you've been physically abused, you're surviving gang violence and gun violence in your community. Poverty is impacting you. And so you just kind of lash out and now you're locked up, you see.

Nathan Stephens:

And so a lot of it all has this interplay that we don't talk about when we're talking about particularly low income Black men from the intercity. That's just a quick example, man, and I haven't really had an opportunity to talk about some of those things but I do talk about diversity and social justice, and I bring those perspectives that there's a lot of information, a lot of knowledge that aren't in our books that needs to be talked about and explored more in depth.

Shimon Cohen:

You're right. It's not talked about. I think about my social work education. I think about a lot of the books I've read, articles, all of that. What's in there is stuff about drugs, poverty, racism, if that's in there but not the sexual violence, not the hypervigilant stress response. There might be some stuff about PTSD but usually you have to go out of the textbooks to really get into that. And in your research, I was wondering as you were talking, are you looking at like what interventions or what kind of ... What is needed to address these issues?

Nathan Stephens:

Well, first, we need to keep our young people safe, safe from the violence in the community, safe from being impoverished. And a lot of times when you're impoverished, that puts you in a vulnerable situation in and of itself, again looking at my own story, coming from having nothing and then someone says, "Hey, if you ..." My first time selling drugs, someone says, "Hey, you just spend $80. And when you get done, you have $300," and I've often challenged people to say, "Tell me another investment that doesn't require education, marketing, all this kind of other stuff for a product that sells itself and is readily accessible," to young people all over. That's what the lure is of illegal crime, et cetera.

Nathan Stephens:

And so because we don't have that, that makes them susceptible. Well, it also makes them more susceptible to do things like stripping and all these kind of other stuff and it's not that there's shame in those things, it's just you have to ask, would our young women do that if they didn't have to? Would our young men sell drugs if they didn't have to? And that's not a pass to say that it's okay but it should cause us to look at more the macro level things and what are the institutions and the policies and the procedures that are in place.

Nathan Stephens:

I have a quick story. I remember when I was in Oklahoma and I actually was trying to go legit and not go back to hustling and dealing. I was working two jobs, but I was still coming up short. And so me and the mother of my child, we went down to social services office and said, "Hey, we just need a little bit of help." Easy numbers real quick, say I was making $700 and we needed a thousand. And so we're basically asking for the $300 difference. And they would say to us, "Well, if he quits his jobs or if one of you leaves the relationship, we'll give you the full $1,000." And you're like, "Wait, what? That's makes no sense."

Nathan Stephens:

And so these are the kind of things that I think social work as a profession needs to look at, is how we are perpetuating oppression upon people by bureaucratic means that are not necessarily effective. But bureaucracies are more interested in efficiency. We serve X number but how impactful was your service, or the program than the things that you've provided? And so education and getting into the classroom gives me an opportunity to challenge my students to start looking at that and look beyond the stereotypes and the things that you're seeing and hearing about in the media and on the news reports and all these other stuff and to be more critical of what's going on.

Shimon Cohen:

Yeah. There's some stuff you said that one thing I wanted to get back to about, and that in what you were just saying made me think about something else. But one thing is like I mean look, there's a lot of white kids selling drugs in the suburbs and they're not in prison. They're not going to prison. So, there's also that level of like hyper-surveillance by police in communities of color.

Shimon Cohen:

I think about in New York with stop and frisk, who was getting stopped and frisked which increases the likelihood of a dangerous encounter as well with police, potentially life-threatening encounter. That's not happening in a suburb with white kids selling drugs because it's there. I mean I grew up in a town where there was plenty of drugs and there weren't a lot of kids going to prison for it.

Nathan Stephens:

Well, even campus police will tell you ... And they will tell you a lot of times they know that there's a lot of drugs coming and that kind of thing. But the notion of hyper-surveillance, and so if you have these dynamics involved in Black and Brown communities, the Bible talks about ill-gotten gain, illegal hustling and all these kind of other stuff. So, as a result of that, we need more police presence.

Nathan Stephens:

Well, the increased police presence typically means you would see more crime because you have an increased presence. And to your point, but crime is occurring in the suburbs and in rural areas too but because it's just so concentrated in a particular area and then the media says, "Well, all of these crimes are happening in these communities."

Nathan Stephens:

And that's why I get so frustrated when people talk about Black-on-Black crime and I say that is true. That's a real thing but what you're not talking about which lets me know that you're subconsciously even purporting white supremacist ideology is you're not talking about white-on-white crime. You're not talking about Asian on Asian and Latinx on Latinx. You're talking only about Black-on-Black crime again, which is a stereotype. Even if it's supported by the data, you're not talking about the FBI statistic that shows that the crime is based on residential patterns.

Nathan Stephens:

So, you're going to see more of that crime within a community because it's disenfranchised, it's impoverished. There's no businesses there, so there's no jobs and all of these different things are taking place. And so it's just so much in that to unpack that it becomes frustrating when it didn't talk about.

Shimon Cohen:

Yeah. And the other thing I think of when there is hyper-surveillance and hyper police presence and a higher likelihood then of arrest, that's the other thing. It's like who gets arrested but then who gets convicted? Who gets cash bail? Who doesn't get cash, all of that? And then I think about you, and you've said, you're a convicted felon. And now you're working in higher ed. You're an assistant professor. Has that come up where places said like, "No, we're not going to hire you"?

Nathan Stephens:

I haven't had that come up ... Well, I've had one incident where my first entrance into higher ed, this is where it gets interesting. Again, I told you the story about my mentor. Background was never an issue as long as I was janitor, never an issue. So, I worked on campus for three, four years or whatever as a janitor, no thing. So then I could graduate and all that and now I'm wanting a professional job. I give the letter of acceptance pending outside the fact of criminal background checks. I blow a gas and I panicked and I called the HR person. We meet and we talked. And the first thing she asked me, she says, "Well, you're not selling drug anymore, are you?" Well, she says, "Do you sell drugs anymore?" and I said, "Ma'am, let me explain something to you. If I sell drugs, I wouldn't be here asking for a job."

Nathan Stephens:

And so that went over well and she talked about the importance of giving second chances and all that and I was appreciative of that. So then, I got a major promotion and I won't name the school but I left that school and went for a short while to an institution. Well, I was assistant to the president. I mean I was cabinet level position and so I was at the job about 45 days. And all of a sudden, I get called down to HR office and they're like, "Your background check came back." I'm like, "Okay, I mean I know what's on it." And they're like, "We didn't know that." And I'm like, "Okay." and they were like, "You know, does president know it?" I'm like, "I don't know. Did you all tell him?"

Nathan Stephens:

And so long story short, I lost the job because ... And my take was they didn't want someone with my background at that level. And I'm like, "Are you kidding me?" So it was never about can you do the job, it was more about the prestige or the appearance of you at that level. And so I'm basically unemployed until I get another job that actually ultimately moved me to Illinois. And I started telling, "Hey, look, before I make this move, here's what's going on with me." And like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, no big deal." So, that and then, the same thing, next move. Hey, hey ... Oh, no, no, big deal.

Nathan Stephens:

And then finally, where I'm at now, I'm like, "Hey," and it was like no big deal over here. We got to find out if there's a big deal over here. So I called this first to be like, "Hey, I quit where I was at to come over here," but ended up being not a big deal because again, this was 20 years ago. I've been out 20 years. Knock on wood at my desk, I don't even have a traffic ticket because again, it's more meaningful out here with my family and contributing to the community and doing things like this than whatever I could find myself getting into that ultimately isn't worth it.

Shimon Cohen:

Do you have students who have like felony convictions and want to be social workers and then worry about like if they're going to be able to do their internship or eventually get license if that's what they want to do? Because that comes up in field education and social work programs all the time.

Nathan Stephens:

Yeah, I had that happened to me personally but I have heard the stories. And I've had people say, even the guys in my class that went into prison were concerned about that. And there's a little bit of debate amongst the professionals because like for example in the State of Illinois, they take it on a case by case basis. And it also depends upon who reviews your application for licensure and stuff like that.

Nathan Stephens:

And so I think that is the next social justice battle, is to say, again I'll use myself, someone like me. I've been out 20 years. I have a demonstrable record of programs that I've created to help youth. In addition to that, I can say that I actually help select the former police chief back in my hometown and at the institution that I worked at that moved me to Illinois, I served on the Board of Fire and Police Commissioners. So, I got to determine who got to be a fire fighter and a police officer. And they knew about my background. I was like, hey, and the mayor told me. He said, "Well, then you actually would be a good ..." And I actually do cultural competency training with law enforcement.

Nathan Stephens:

So, whenever these things come up, I say, "Hey, I do this. Why in the world would I do these things if I was trying to do dirt or bad person or whatever?" And in many ways, it reeks of respectability politics just being candid. But I will humbly say I was intentional in doing some of that, one, because I was curious about it but two, I felt like I have a contribution to make to help police officers and others understand from both sides. Well now, I'm on the "ivory tower" side with you in terms of campus security or police departments. But I used to be on this other side and I can kind of tell you what led me here.

Nathan Stephens:

And I understand from a law enforcement perspective, you break a crime, you break a crime, or break a law, you break a law. You commit a crime, you commit a crime. I get that. But I also push back and say, "What was the narrative behind the crime?" And so there's a lot of leeway that they get. You get this little kid, he's at the grocery store and he steals some apples. And he tells you, "I only stole these or I'm trying to steal some meat because we're hungry and we don't have any food and we don't qualify for food stamps." I'm telling officers, "Can you use some type of discretion in those situations?" Because I can guarantee you that kid didn't wake up and say, "Hey, I'm going to go to a grocery store and steal this morning." When he woke up, probably more likely than not, the rumbling and the tumbling led to some of that.

Nathan Stephens:

And so these are the kind of conversations that I'm able to have from a privileged position as a faculty member now versus just someone coming off the street trying to just say that, it might not be received the same.

Shimon Cohen:

I mean as a profession and I understand like there's different licensing and laws in each state. But as a profession that supposedly, well, we are profession committed to social justice in writing with our code of ethics. How do we then not push back and try to change these state laws and licensing issues for people with criminal backgrounds when we're supposed to believe in a transformative power of people? And we're keeping people out of being able to do powerful work in the community, people who really actually could probably understand some of that work better than someone who never had those issues potentially. So that's a real issue.

Shimon Cohen:

I mean it's just interesting because like I have a record. I don't have any felonies but I've had it to come up at tons of jobs to the point where I've had to have appeal review hearings and stuff where I had to get stacks of letters to support on my behalf and explain every charge. So I keep documents in drop box actually from when I'm applying so I don't have to rewrite it every time. I have my statement already ready to go.

Nathan Stephens:

I think it's two things. My thoughts on that is two-fold and the first is that I think social work is a profession that it's trying to remain credible. And so it doesn't want to have one of those situations where we let this person become a social worker and they were still a monster. So, I think there's that fear, which I think it's ridiculous. But I think it's that piece. But then the other piece is when you talk about Michelle Alexander's book, The New Jim Crow, she says in there that even a lot of legislators of color are afraid to appear soft on crime and those kind of things.

Nathan Stephens:

And so those licensure requirements could be changed with some support from CSWE, NASW, NABSW, all these different organizations that says, "Hey, we know the disproportionately communities of color impacted by the prison industrial complex." So, it's important for us to advocate like social workers are supposed to and educate about being flexible.

Nathan Stephens:

And so that's actually one of the things that I actually plan to do hopefully within the next few years, is to apply for my license. And it's one of those things that I'm preparing for, like you say, gearing up to be able to like I said have my documents in ducks in a row to be able to say this is who I am and this is how I roll and it's not like that. And so on the one hand, I can appreciate the desire to protect children but on the other hand, I feel like there's a little bit of work that needs to be done to kind of fine-tune that so that you're not, as you said, screening out folks who would be good candidates to be able to speak to folks.

Nathan Stephens:

I created programs to where I'm not afraid to go into the drug zones and the gun violence zones to talk to the young people. One of the programs I created, we told the Chamber of Commerce when we were getting young people employment, we serve the heart to serve. We serve the gang members and the drug dealers and we want to offer them a different opportunity because again, a lot of times, these kids don't want to do those things. They just may not fully understand or feel like they have an opportunity to do anything different. And so advocating and educating and we were actually well received trying to do those kind of programs.

Shimon Cohen:

That's cool. I mean it's funny the thing about like social work screening out people though is like there's plenty of social workers who don't have criminal records who do hurt people, who do do damage, who have bias, who are racist or who are homophobic and play that out in how they affect children, youth, families. So, that needs to get addressed too because it's like those people can get through and go be social workers but then these other people can't.

Nathan Stephens:

Well, and to your point I agree. And to your point, it's one of those things when you look at our own college campuses where sexual violence is pervasive. But you're screening so hard in the admissions process for someone that may have a background. But 9 times out of 10, believe me, when they let me in the door of Columbia College, a person told me, "We're going to give you one semester for probation. We're going to you one try."

Nathan Stephens:

I'm very aware that you're watching me. So, I've even had some situations in employment. I've told some powers to be, "Look, I know my background and I know who the person you're going to come looking for if something comes up missing. So, it's not going to be me." Meanwhile, we're letting people into our schools and colleges who are causing harm and maybe not find out about because we know that unfortunately, our women aren't believed and they don't feel supported so they don't report.

Nathan Stephens:

So now, you're letting some of these monsters go into law and become a medical doctors and all these kind of other things while the person who is fresh out of jail is just wanting to give back, wanting to help out, wanting to kind of redeem themselves, so to speak, but are being finger-wagged the entire way. "I'm watching you," and again, the hyper surveillance.

Nathan Stephens:

And so that was one of the aspirations for me to get such good grades and end up with the 3.72. I should have a 3.78 but that's another story. I got played on a class. But I knew. A guy told me, "We're going to give you a shot, like you should be appreciative that we're going to give you one semester in our school," and I said, "Okay, yeah. I got you, player. I got you. I'm going to show you. Again, I'm from Missouri, I'm going to show you." And so I made the most of the opportunity. But I knew that this thing is going to drag with me along the way.

Nathan Stephens:

And even some of the reform efforts like Ban the Box, it does help you get the interview but once you get to a certain stage in the interview process that becomes obsolete. And in many ways it should. I don't want to take the decision-making ability away from a hiring manager but at the same time, give folks an opportunity to present themselves, to present like you said my packet of information, my documentations showing that who I was in 1989 versus who I am in 2020, get ready to be 2021, two totally different people if you ask me.

Shimon Cohen:

Yeah. As we're kind of wrapping up the interview and I just so much appreciate our conversation. I feel like we could just talk about so many different things. But I just wanted to like, is there anything else you wanted to use this platform to talk about before we finish this up?

Nathan Stephens:

Yeah. I made a note to myself, I know I was going to get sidelined. And so one of the things that I did say is that Tupac once said that no one knows my struggle. It's hard to carry on when no one loves you. So, I would ask people to let Black men know that they care, even if you have an odd way of showing it. Let them know that you care and let Black boys know that they're loved and supported, those that are nearest and dearest so that should some of these things happen, they'll know that I have someone that I can talk to, someone in my corner and then show up for the programs like Big Brothers Big Sisters, Boys & Girls Club and all of that. There needs to be men in particular. I'm speaking to have some hope outside of sports. I mean sports is great, but not everyone plays.

Nathan Stephens:

And then the final thing, I will just like to say is I would like to thank Illinois State University for giving me the opportunity. I mean they have been supporters from day one. Again, I came into this situation being frank and they've been supportive and to people that are going through a tough time right now because of the economy, because of mental health or whatever it is, I would just say, "Man, hang in there. Stick it out. Brighter days will come."

Nathan Stephens:

And the other thing is that keep the fight going and I'm making connections right now with Black men in London, Black men in Toronto, Black men in Nigeria, and oddly enough we're fighting some of the same stuff, all of these places. And so be sure to support the folks that are doing this work worldwide and give a little time. Give a little money if you can to support these change efforts that are taking place around the globe.

Shimon Cohen:

Yeah, man. Thanks so much for saying that. And thanks for coming on here and thanks for doin' the work in the community.

Nathan Stephens:

Appreciate it, man. My pleasure.

Shimon Cohen:

Thank you for listening to Doin’ The Work: Frontline Stories of Social Change. I hope you enjoyed the podcast. Please follow on Twitter and leave positive reviews on iTunes. If you’re interested in being a guest or know someone who’s doing great work, please get in touch. Thank you for doing real work to make this world a better place.

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